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I Love You, Man (as a Friend) - NYT Article on gay/straight male friendships

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injest
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« on: June 30, 2009, 06:03:18 pm »

I Love You, Man (as a Friend)
Published: June 26, 2009

WELCOME to the flip side of homophobia.
Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times

»“I’m flattered, and I think it’s hilarious,” Kris Allen told People.com recently, responding to the news that his former roommate and runner-up on “American Idol,” Adam Lambert, had a crush on him.

Mr. Lambert, who favors black eyeliner and leather pants, had told Rolling Stone that Mr. Allen, an aw-shucks Christian from Arkansas, was “the one guy that I found attractive in the whole group on the show — nice, nonchalant, pretty and totally my type — except that he has a wife.”

This all went down in the same interview in which Mr. Lambert finally confirmed the long-simmering rumor that, yep, he’s gay.

Mr. Allen’s cool, self-assured response to being the object of his gay roommate’s affection doesn’t exactly qualify him as a civil rights hero, not at a time when straight men march against Proposition 8 in California and the most anticipated gay-themed film of the year, “Brüno,” is coming from a straight (if highly waxed) comedian.

But do give him credit for overcoming one of the most common deal-killers in friendships between straight and gay men: the awkward crush.

The kinship between gay men and straight women is familiar to the point of cliché (see: “Sex and the City,” “Will and Grace,” Kathy Griffin’s audience, etc.), but friendships between gay and straight men have barely registered on the pop culture radar, perhaps because they resist easy classification. For every sweeping statement one can make about such friendships, there is a real-life counter example to undermine the stereotypes. And as with all friendships, no two are exactly alike.

But as America’s openly gay minority becomes more visibly interwoven into society — a 2007 poll by the Pew Research Center found that 4 out of 10 respondents had a close friend or family member who was a gay man or a lesbian — the straight world becomes more aware of the gay world. Although male friends of opposite orientations can face formidable obstacles — sexuality, language, peer pressure, inequality — there seems to be more mutual appreciation and common ground.

“The younger generation understands the spectrum and fluidity of sexuality much more than generations of the past,” said Tom Bourdon, director of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender Center at Tufts University. “Most liberal-minded straight guys today could say they have gay friends, and people wouldn’t bat an eye.”

Pop culture has also been picking up on this, serving up gay characters who have broken out of old stereotypes. In “I Love You, Man,” Andy Samberg plays a fist-bumping sports nut who is gay but makes the straight man, Paul Rudd, look prissy. On “The Sarah Silverman Program,” the gay couple acts so pathologically straight that they express their feelings with lines like, “I’m totally gay for you, dude,” between bong hits.

Still, as Billy Crystal remarked in “When Harry Met Sally,” it’s difficult for men and women to be friends because “the sex part always gets in the way.” The same can be true between gay and straight men — only it gets way more complicated.

Jason Mills, a gay screenwriter in New York, wrote a short film called “Curious Thing” about the time he lost a straight friend after things briefly turned sexual. “Where it can get confusing for a straight man and a gay man is when they connect on every other level, and then the gay man starts to question, ‘Well if there was just that one other thing, this could be perfect,’ ” Mr. Mills said. (Complicating matters a bit, Mr. Mills’s films are directed by his straight friend and business partner, Alain Hain, who must frequently combat the assumption that the movies are about him and Mr. Mills.)

Adam Carter, 34, a straight fund-raiser from Chicago who frequently travels overseas, recalled losing a friend in Brazil after rejecting his advances.

“We were driving to a party and he put his hand on my thigh,” Mr. Carter said. “I didn’t make a big deal out of it. I just told him it wasn’t my thing. But things were never the same.”

He added: “Now I look back on all the things we did together and wonder, was it all just to get me in the sack? Now I know what girls feel like.”

The notion that gay men can’t or don’t refrain from hitting on straight friends is, to many, the biggest stereotype of all. It’s simply not true, say most of the men in gay-straight friendships interviewed for this article.

A more common source of friction, some gay men say, is the tendency of straight friends to see them only through the lens of sexual orientation. “I do have a lot of straight friends, but it’s harder to make real relationships with straight guys,” said Matthew Streib, 27, a gay journalist in Baltimore. “I feel like it’s always about my gayness for the first two months. First they have questions, then they make fun of it, then they start seeing me as a person.”


Continues:  http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/28/fashion/28friends.html?_r=2&scp=8&sq=gay&st=cse
 
 
 
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« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2009, 10:59:12 am »

Quote
Great article.  I do agree with the article, most of the straight men I know are afraid of having gay male friends because they think the men will eventually hit on them.  Kinda like the When Harry met Sally scenario, which most of them buy into.  They wouldn't be hanging out with women as "friends" if they didn't hope at some point to get in the sack with them.  So why should they think gay men are any different when it comes to objects of their affections/lust?

Quote
Quote by milo -
Unlike some other gay men interviewed, Mr. Estrin said he found it easy to socialize with heterosexuals. “I find straight men so uncomplicated,” he said. “They’re just easier.”

Can I get an AMEN!!!

and

Quote
quote by milo - But he speaks frankly about what such friendships afford him. “Every time I hang out with my gay friends, we have to spend half an hour talking about how they have to get to the gym or how fat they feel,” Mr. Streib said. “My straight friends just sit in a crowded bar and drink. It’s like a mini-vacation from my life.”

Both this guy from the article and milo agree that straight men are uncomplicated.  The guy from the article considers them a mini-vacation.  Try not being able to take a "vacation" from them.  Dealing with straight men as a woman - simple creatures who hangout and just drink - no talking, no discussion, no nada.  What is seen as a plus by some gay men is seen as a major complaint by straight women about straight men - that they're simple, only want 3 things, uncommunicative, etc., etc.,.

Quote
Quote by milo -
But Mr. Vachon got his revenge. When a girlfriend of Mr. Drew’s arrived, Mr. Vachon quickly let her know that Mr. Drew had previously referred to her as his “booty call.”

See, this is what some women and gay men just don’t get: that’s just guy talk. It doesn’t mean anything, and there’s usually no psycho-pathology behind it.

But you don't really know, do you?  So you can either take a chance he's just kidding, risking your heart, emotions and time or bail and find someone who doesn't refer to you this way.  Personally, whenever a guy referred to me this way that I found out about, that's exactly how he considered me. 
 
 

generalize much, Del?? I mean I KNOW there are guys like this out here...but there are also a lot of really good guys out here too.

Don has referred to me as his 'booty call'..he was being silly and teasing..it didn't mean any disrespect. but maybe we don't 'get' what a booty call is..
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 11:34:00 am by injest » Report Spam   Logged
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« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2009, 11:37:46 am »

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Gatherings of straight men are not completely devoid of communication. Its just that they don't sit there blabbering on and on about a topic. The converstaion tends to be more direct and to the point. And yes, depending on what's on the TV at the bar, there will be long stretches where nobody says anything. 

Its not a matter of women and some gay men being willing/able to communicate, and straight men and some gay men not being willing/able to communicate. Its about a difference in the approaches of the two groups when it comes to social interaction.
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« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2009, 11:51:22 am »

generalize much, Del?? I mean I KNOW there are guys like this out here...but there are also a lot of really good guys out here too.

Don has referred to me as his 'booty call'..he was being silly and teasing..it didn't mean any disrespect. but maybe we don't 'get' what a booty call is..

No, Jess. I'm both you and Don have the definition of "booty call" correct.

If Del thinks that the guys she has been with don't engage in "guy talk," she's mistaken. The whole point is that we talk trash when women aren't around.
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« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2009, 11:56:14 am »

No, Jess. I'm both you and Don have the definition of "booty call" correct.

If Del thinks that the guys she has been with don't engage in "guy talk," she's mistaken. The whole point is that we talk trash when women aren't around.

I agree that they do...and I think she does too...the difference is what we think it means..


some women see it as degrading, some see it as just harmless talk..

I think it depends on the rest of the relationship is like. If you are in a iffy relationship where you aren't sure where you stand, it will seem different than if you are in a long term committed relationship..(to the woman)

and I think it is like that for men too...it can be harmless teasing and bravado or it can be cruel...

context is everything in any relationship.
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« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2009, 12:37:34 pm »

Quote
Quote
Theres a lot that does get exchanged but its just not explicit. Guys do stuff together, women get together and talk, and theres the difference between male and female gatherings.

Thats not to say guys dont ever have deep conversations, but nowhere with the frequency that woman do, it that tenbds to be a "special Occasion" with a guy you have known for a long time and trust, not the everyday thing that it is with women.



I guess, but sadly, it does say a lot that straight men invariably call their SO their 'best friends' because they are unable to communicate deeper feelings with their male friends.  Therefore it seems to me that a lot of what men 'share' isn't as close or as meaningful as they say it is.

Del. just because something is different, doesnt' mean it is worse.
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« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2009, 12:42:34 pm »

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I don't know of any straight guys that call their significant others "best friends." They usually go with "girlfriend," "woman," or some such.

As for the bolded part, this is a myth. Men communicate on a male scale. Part of that is an economy of language. You get the rest from inflection, facial expression, and body language. Its all there, and just as deep as with women. It just doesn't all come out of the mouth.

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« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2009, 12:44:55 pm »

I think it depends on the rest of the relationship is like. If you are in a iffy relationship where you aren't sure where you stand, it will seem different than if you are in a long term committed relationship..(to the woman)

and I think it is like that for men too...it can be harmless teasing and bravado or it can be cruel...

context is everything in any relationship.

That's true. But I think the author of the article brought it up as if it was some politically-incorrect "no-no" that must never occur.
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« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2009, 01:02:59 pm »

Not going to bother to post this on BM, but as some of you know, I have been spending the last couple weeks wrapping up the affairs on my grandmother, who passed away at the age of 97 late last month. My son has been living with her for the past year so she could stay in her house that she couldnt manage on her own, and we been taking the opportunity to have some father-son bonding that included some pretty deep conversations that might not necessarily have looked like deep conversations to an observer.

One nite, "Stand By Me" played on TV. To any women who want t acrash course in the dynamics of male friendships, theres no better tutorial than this movie. Bonus, you get to see your menfolk cry like little babies if thats what does it for you. Theres so much going on in this movie, I almost cant watch it in one sitting.

Also I wonder, do boys having growing up lives like that any more, where they go into the woods together or go camping, or even just cruise the neighborhood. Seems like all my friends kids just SIT, ususally in front of some form of entertainment, under the watchful eye of parents ever-vigilant for sex offenders. Hate to think a generation of boys is growing up without secret clubhouses, or making mudholes in the yard to populate with frogs, or going exploring abandoned houses and shit like that. Though maybe reaching Level Three togthether in Halo has taken the place of daring each other to run gate-to-gate thru the pasture where your uncle keeps the big mean bull Roll Eyes
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« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2009, 01:14:20 pm »

did I tell you about D breaking his leg five years ago trying to ride the cows?

 Wink Wink

the last time I went to the reining competition I work at, I noticed some activity behind the chutes...we hired a young man to run the cows in and out of the arena(to save time) a couple of the youths (10 or 11) were back there with him...he had his rope out and was practice throwing it....the youths were in the pen with him, with his extra rope aping his every move.....there wasn't a lot of conversation (I heard them speaking in half sentences and long silences) but there was a TON of communication and instruction going on...

I wish I had taped it now...it would have been the perfect example...
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« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2009, 02:04:18 pm »

GREAT post. There's a few topics rolled into this one.

Not going to bother to post this on BM, but as some of you know, I have been spending the last couple weeks wrapping up the affairs on my grandmother, who passed away at the age of 97 late last month. My son has been living with her for the past year so she could stay in her house that she couldnt manage on her own, and we been taking the opportunity to have some father-son bonding that included some pretty deep conversations that might not necessarily have looked like deep conversations to an observer.

I'm happy to hear that you and your son had this opportunity. I know I always feel better when I get off the phone with my dad.


One nite, "Stand By Me" played on TV. To any women who want t acrash course in the dynamics of male friendships, theres no better tutorial than this movie. Bonus, you get to see your menfolk cry like little babies if thats what does it for you. Theres so much going on in this movie, I almost cant watch it in one sitting.

True. I should go watch it again.

Also I wonder, do boys having growing up lives like that any more, where they go into the woods together or go camping, or even just cruise the neighborhood. Seems like all my friends kids just SIT, ususally in front of some form of entertainment, under the watchful eye of parents ever-vigilant for sex offenders. Hate to think a generation of boys is growing up without secret clubhouses, or making mudholes in the yard to populate with frogs, or going exploring abandoned houses and shit like that. Though maybe reaching Level Three togthether in Halo has taken the place of daring each other to run gate-to-gate thru the pasture where your uncle keeps the big mean bull Roll Eyes

Mostly, and sadly...no. Americans are creating generations of sedentary children, and the rest of the modern world is tagging along. Specifically Gen-X and Gen-Y. I think things like extreme sports, "adventure" vacations, dude ranches, and stuff like that have become so popular is that there is a contingent of older boys and men out there who need an outlet for the kind of masculine, "do something" activities they are/were not getting as little boys. And while it doesn't seem to be that prevalent in rural America, it is not a purely urban/suburban problem. My own early childhood, even pre-school, was full of dirt, rocks, catching bugs, playing with discarded auto parts, daring to climb the stairs in an abandoned house, etc. So city boys get the same kind of experience within our own context.

I agree that boys can bond over a video game. As a matter of fact, there is a Guitar Hero club the teenage boys have started at my church. It is quite popular, and they talk about it all the time. They tease each other about stuff that happened at the last game, etc. Its so fun to watch. Their happiness and energy are infectious.

But that all said, I think that the "old fashioned" play that boys like AJ and I engaged in had a level of physicality and tactile-ness that these boys are missing out on. When AJ or I turned over a rock and found slugs, we had the help of the other boys to lift the rock. All of us got to feel first hand what slime felt like. And when the rock dropped and crushed one of the boys' feet, we all had to come together and get him home. Today's boys spend more time observing than doing. And life is not a spectator's sport.

Actually AJ, now that I think about it, this could be a good topic for Bettermost. Its fits right in with the theme of In the Community of Men. And its not a controversial topic, so we shouldn't have to do any ass-whoopin'.
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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2009, 02:16:10 pm »

oh FINE!! run off to play with the big kids!

 Angry Cry Cry









 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
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« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2009, 02:32:57 pm »

oh FINE!! run off to play with the big kids!

 Angry Cry Cry









 Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

Now, Jess...you know this place offers a whole different value.
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« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2009, 02:49:23 pm »

Now, Jess...you know this place offers a whole different value.

 Wink Wink
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« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2009, 09:51:46 pm »

from Clyde

Quote
What's not being mentioned here is that many men are taught not to share emotions - especially ones that could be seen as weaknesses.  Letting another man know your weaknesses puts you at risk, and there are some men (and women too) that will use a man's weaknesses against him.  If it's a stranger that you will never see again it doesn't matter.

As a consequence some men try not to have emotions at all.  They grow up expressing everything through humor or anger, pretending that sadness and hurt and fear do not exist.  (Too many little boys are taught that "Men don't cry." instead of the more sensible, "Don't let your enemies see you cry.")

Pretending negative emotions don't exist doesn't mean that they don't, but it does mean that these people don't know how to deal with them, because they've had no experience, because you can't deal with something you pretend isn't there.

not emoting all over the place doesnt' mean that men 'pretend they don't exist'...they learn to DEAL with them in different ways then women. Women learn to turn to friends, to rail and let it out...men learn to turn to activities and to different forms of expression.

men are not as stoic as they are being made out to be...they are just not as overt as women. If you get to know men well enough they are pretty transparent...ask anyone in a long term relationship and they will tell you, they can tell their mates mood without a word being spoken.
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