10-Year-Old Grand Marshal at Gay Rights Parade Sparks Controversy Across U.S.

[injest]

We may never for certain whether his parents put him up to this or not. Maybe they didn't...this time. I'd be willing to bet money that the Pledge of Allegiance stunt a couple years ago was staged by adults, and my suspicions are that this is too. How do we know the parade organizers didn't invite him, and he just said "yes" without having thought about it before the invitation? After all, the article states that the parade organizers "selected" him...not the other way around.

and what organization would approach a ten year old anyway? they would have HAD to talk to his parents first...I can't see them cornering him on the playground after all. And I don't know how they phrased it to HIM but parents have a great deal of influence at that age.

I wonder if he has an agent??

[Arcadianmemories]

You and I have danced this pas de deux before, so you know I disagree. I still like you. I still respect you. You still have a gazillion wonderful and valuable things to say on a whole host of issues. Regardless, a Pride parade is no place for a minor. No its not ALL about sex, but there is often enough sexual content to make it inappropriate.

thanks for the nice words, but except for the reference to sexual imagery, you really haven't given me a reason why a minor couldn't with parental supervision participate in a pride parade. all parades tend to have sexual imageries of some kind of the other. lets face it, all across the nation next week on 4th July, there will be female majorettes twirling batons prancing around in short short skirts and they are definitely using  types of sexual imagery. and, its ok for kids to be in those parades? of course, no harm done, sex is unbiquitous.

what really is different here in the pride parade is we are talking about homoerotic imageries. and IMO what people are objecting to is placing a minor in proximity to homoerotic imagery, where they wouldn't think twice about the kid being involved in parade with young women in short shorts and short skirts twirling batons.

so, what we are uncovering here is called - homophobia.

[Milo]

thanks for the nice words, but except for the reference to sexual imagery, you really haven't given me a reason why a minor couldn't with parental supervision participate in a pride parade. all parades tend to have sexual imageries of some kind of the other. lets face it, all across the nation next week on 4th July, there will be female majorettes twirling batons prancing around in short short skirts and they are definitely using  types of sexual imagery. and, its ok for kids to be in those parades? of course, no harm done, sex is unbiquitous.

what really is different here in the pride parade is we are talking about homoerotic imageries. and IMO what people are objecting to is placing a minor in proximity to homoerotic imagery, where they wouldn't think twice about the kid being involved in parade with young women in short shorts and short skirts twirling batons.

so, what we are uncovering here is called - homophobia.

I would say that at a 4th of July parade, the majorettes are an example of sensual imagery, not sexual imagery. What we get at gay pride is some of both. The go-go boys are on par with the majorettes--sensual, but not overtly sexual. But the assless chaps, penis costumes, simulated (or real) B&D scenes, blowjobs in the alleys, ect., ect., etc. are not on par with the majorettes, and are indeed overtly sexual, and therefore not fit for consumption by minors.

[Arcadianmemories]

I would say that at a 4th of July parade, the majorettes are an example of sensual imagery, not sexual imagery. What we get at gay pride is some of both. The go-go boys are on par with the majorettes--sensual, but not overtly sexual. But the assless chaps, penis costumes, simulated (or real) B&D scenes, blowjobs in the alleys, ect., ect., etc. are not on par with the majorettes, and are indeed overtly sexual, and therefore not fit for consumption by minors.

I can't draw that line Milo. Lets not talk about the extreme examples from Pride parades, but what happens in the norm. and the examples you give seem overwrought. I can probably find some blow job examples at some 4th July picnics, or drunken altercations at St Paddy's parades, and so on and so on. In the normal course of events, the sensual you describe is the same as the sexual I describe. and I just can't see how the negative reaction to this kid in the parade is anything other than a type of homophobia. an uncomfortable feeling about gay sex, a desire that all gay men should be buttoned up Victorian primroses. oh, come on, even if gay men were buttoned down geeks, homophobes would still find an excuse to be "uncomfortable".

no harm was done to the kid in the parade, let be.

[injest]

I can't draw that line Milo. Lets not talk about the extreme examples from Pride parades, but what happens in the norm. and the examples you give seem overwrought. I can probably find some blow job examples at some 4th July picnics, or drunken altercations at St Paddy's parades, and so on and so on. In the normal course of events, the sensual you describe is the same as the sexual I describe. and I just can't see how the negative reaction to this kid in the parade is anything other than a type of homophobia. an uncomfortable feeling about gay sex, a desire that all gay men should be buttoned up Victorian primroses. oh, come on, even if gay men were buttoned down geeks, homophobes would still find an excuse to be "uncomfortable".

no harm was done to the kid in the parade, let be.

are we back on Bettermost? disagreement does not a homophobe make.

[Arcadianmemories]

are we back on Bettermost? disagreement does not a homophobe make.

I am not calling anyone specifically homophobic, other than the Westboro KS Baptist Church who unfortunately are coming to Dallas to protest at a Jewish Community Center and a Gay Community Center. 

I am indicating that I think the discomfort level with this kid in this parade has some of its roots in homophobia in the society. The only objections I read here about the kid in the parade were concerning the "sexual" nature of some displays in other Pride parades.

So, why is homosexuality so frightening? Heterosexuality is openly expressed all the day long.

[injest]

I am not calling anyone specifically homophobic, other than the Westboro KS Baptist Church who unfortunately are coming to Dallas to protest at a Jewish Community Center and a Gay Community Center. 

I am indicating that I think the discomfort level with this kid in this parade has some of its roots in homophobia in the society. The only objections I read here about the kid in the parade were concerning the "sexual" nature of some displays in other Pride parades.

So, why is homosexuality so frightening? Heterosexuality is openly expressed all the day long.

seriously, Bill, when was the last parade you saw with kids in attendance where women were in cages wearing fetish wear and ball gags and simulating sex acts? please show me the pictures??

where is the parades with kids in attendance were women were walking around on leashes being led by men?

there is 'expression' then there is 'expression'...and gay parades are not family friendly....not until they start setting some standards and policing themselves.

[Arcadianmemories]

seriously, Bill, when was the last parade you saw with kids in attendance where women were in cages wearing fetish wear and ball gags and simulating sex acts? please show me the pictures??

where is the parades with kids in attendance were women were walking around on leashes being led by men?

there is 'expression' then there is 'expression'...and gay parades are not family friendly....not until they start setting some standards and policing themselves.

Jess, I have I believe never participated in a Pride Parade per se. I have seen a few thru the decades, and I never saw the displays you talk of, I don't deny they exist, I just think that they are out of the norm. I think that most Pride parades are just ordinary people at last coming out and trying to find some dignity in their lives, frequently you find a strong PFLAG presence as parents and relatives and neighbors show their support and love.

I need to emphasize that I don't encourage penis shaped floats or Marie Antoinette look alikes on roller skates  , but I do encourage courage. And the parades are apart of courage.

I think that many people don't understand how hurtful it is to read about the constant disparagement of gays, even if some of the extreme acts deserve a bit of censure. Sometimes you just have to put up with a bit of unasked for "glitter" when you accept that gays are a part of the larger community. 

[injest]

Jess, I have I believe never participated in a Pride Parade per se. I have seen a few thru the decades, and I never saw the displays you talk of, I don't deny they exist, I just think that they are out of the norm. I think that most Pride parades are just ordinary people at last coming out and trying to find some dignity in their lives, frequently you find a strong PFLAG presence as parents and relatives and neighbors show their support and love.

I need to emphasize that I don't encourage penis shaped floats or Marie Antoinette look alikes on roller skates  , but I do encourage courage. And the parades are apart of courage.

I think that many people don't understand how hurtful it is to read about the constant disparagement of gays, even if some of the extreme acts deserve a bit of censure. Sometimes you just have to put up with a bit of unasked for "glitter" when you accept that gays are a part of the larger community. 

no, I expect people that are part of the community to respect the community....and if they don't they dont' get to be part of the 'community'.

[Milo]

Sometimes you just have to put up with a bit of unasked for "glitter" when you accept that gays are a part of the larger community. 

But we're not objecting to "glitter" we're objecting to, its not even "expression" we're objecting to. Its sexually explicit content we're objecting to. I know you said that you don't draw a line between sensual content and sexually explicit content, but the rest of the world does. The MPAA, the FCC, and RIAA all draw that line when it comes to publicly available media content. I was in a bar yesterday, and somebody played a rap "tune" that contained the lyrics "I wanna fuck every girl I see" in the chorus. When this tune plays on the radio, the word "fuck" is omitted.

When parents let their kids listen to the radio, they have a reasonable expectation that the kids won't hear the word "fuck." When parents are out with other adults drinking in a neighborhood bar, they have a reasonable expectation that they just might hear a song with the word "fuck" in it.

Now let's get back to parades. There have been sufficient examples of sexually explicit content in gay pride parades for decades now. Parents naturally don't want their children exposed to sexually explicit content AT ALL--who is doing what to whom doesn't matter. Does every Pride parade feature sexually explicit content? No. But how is a parent supposed to know that the upcoming parade in their city is child-safe?? If Pride parade organizers want to attract parents with children, they need to police themselves better. But the orthodox gay community threw out anything that resembled standards or "appropriate" long ago.

[Arcadianmemories]

1) But we're not objecting to "glitter" we're objecting to, its not even "expression" we're objecting to. Its sexually explicit content we're objecting to. I know you said that you don't draw a line between sensual content and sexually explicit content, but the rest of the world does.

2) But how is a parent supposed to know that the upcoming parade in their city is child-safe?? If Pride parade organizers want to attract parents with children, they need to police themselves better. But the orthodox gay community threw out anything that resembled standards or "appropriate" long ago.

1) what is sexually explicit content and how does it relate to the experience of the 10 year old kid in the gay pride parade? the only type of sexually explicit conduct that we will all agree exists is an actual genital to genital sex act. I am not in favor of those being performed on floats in parades of any sort. the question about the kid in the parade assumes that there were sexually explicit actions which traumatized him in the parade he lead / witnessed. (otherwise, why be concerned that he was there?) there is no such evidence available that sexually explicit actions occured, so then I must assume that the objections center around the fact that the kid was involved with any activity (sexual or nonsexual / sensual or nonsensual) that concerns gays. And that is why I brought up the subject of societal homophobia. Homophobia runs so deep in this culture that in some instances anything remotely to do with gays is assumed to be :

a) sexual

b) graphic

c) obscene

and when children become involved in the equation, the benefit of any doubt is thrown out, esp when it involves gay people. the assumption is then magnified that anything gay oriented must be harmful to the child.

2) how do parents know if anything will be safe according to their own individual child rearing standards? they must research and watch and take a deep abiding interest in the welfare of their children. it isn't the responsibility of the parade organizers to screen out all possible objectionable behavior according to the standards of everyone.

Q? where to we draw the line between self policing and enforcing homophobic proscriptions on ourselves in order to conform with general opinion about gays? I am reminded of the Jewish police in the Warsaw ghetto in the 1940's. (see Polanski's film "The Pianist" for a portrayal of that period and the role of the Jewish police in the holocaust) The Jewish police enforced the Nazi programs against the Jewish community, even to loading Jews onto the cattle cars that shipped them to Treblinka.

Q? where are the limits of adopting general community standards which may be prejudicial? I am reminded of the novel "War and Remembrance" by Herman Wouk in this novel set in the holocaust period, a fully assimilated Jew who had converted to Catholicism couldn't believe that the Nazi's would treat him as anything other than what he was  - a highly educated Pulitzer prized winning classics scholar fluent in 5 languages and honored on 3 continents. Unfortunately, all of this man's assimilation helped him not one bit when he fell into the hands of the Nazis, he perished in Auschwitz.

in short I do not think that we gays have a responsibility to police ourselves, if there are incidents which need policing, then the real police will handle that issue as a crime. I do not believe that assimilation is necessarily a good "in and of itself" (as Kant said), esp when living in a society which has elements of intolerance.

as I have grown older, I find myself becoming more indulgent of some of what you describe as the extremes in the gay community. I have also grown further libertarian and right wing in my politics. my own personal life is very conservative in appearance and all of my friends and associates also are conservative in their lives, but I feel that we as a community are a part of a large family picture. I happen to be in it, and also the drag queen on roller skates dressed as Marie Antoinette is in it. (I hope he/she can keep his / her balance until we can get the picture taken. 

[Milo]

- Well, no. There doesn't have to be actual sex happening for something to be sexually explicit. And I've already pointed to the FCC, MPAA, and RIAA as examples of sets of standards for what constitutes "indecent."

- Actually, when it comes to my objections, they are more general than just Will and the parade in Fayetteville, AK. For all I know, that parade was 100% child-safe. But did his parent know that, ask about it, or even care?? I don't know. The way I see it, children don't belong at Pride parades unless the parents get a clearance from the organizers that there will be no sexually explicit content in the parade. If the organizers can't, or won't make that assurance, then children should stay away. When an opera company decides to do Salome with an actual nude singer or dancer doing the Dance of the Seven Veils, they will put a warning in the marketing materials. Pride parade organizers should offer the public the same courtesy. That way, the public knows what its getting, and the parade organizers get to put whatever they want on the street.

- I don't see anything homophobic at all about keeping sexually explicit content out of Pride parades. If they want to attract families with children, its in their best interest to police the content. Do you think a "Girls Gone Wild" float would be appropriate at an Independence Day parade?? I don't, and I don't think parents with children would either. There's nothing prejudicial about keeping it "clean."

- I understand your sentiments about the more extreme elements in the gay community, but I don't agree. I was once told over on DCF that I should simply accept the ghetto as part of African-American culture. Well...that's just insanity. Besides, I will not be bullied (not that you're bullying me) into accepting shit I don't like. That is PC crap.

[injest]

my objection is not just the sexually explicit content; although that IS one of the main reasons...

no, my objection is putting this kid out there as a tool to further an adults agenda. You haven't addressed that part of it, Bill.

I keep thinking of that poor child HK mentioned earlier..the boy dressed in a skirt and girl's shoes by his Lesbian caregiver...what must he feel about men watching that parade? watching men led around on leashes, men in cages, men strapped down with ball gags in their mouths...it HAD to have been completely emasculating to him. And I think that was exactly what his mother was trying to do..

I try to imagine how it would have gone over if it had been a little girl watching a parade of women being leashed and dragged thru the streets, women in cages as men leered over them, women tied up in fetish wear while the people on the street cheer..

[Milo]

I try to imagine how it would have gone over if it had been a little girl watching a parade of women being leashed and dragged thru the streets, women in cages as men leered over them, women tied up in fetish wear while the people on the street cheer..

A few years ago, Snoop Dog caused a controversy when showed up on the red carpet of one of the music industry awards shows (if forget which one it was) with scantily clad video ho's on leashes. People did not like that one tiny little bit.

[injest]

A few years ago, Snoop Dog caused a controversy when showed up on the red carpet of one of the music industry awards shows (if forget which one it was) with scantily clad video ho's on leashes. People did not like that one tiny little bit.

somehow it is 'ok' if it is done to a guy...I am sure those women with Snoop were ok with it too...they agreed to do it too..