"Gay" Damascus

[MagicM]

Homosexuals enjoy extraordinary freedoms in Damascus, as they do elsewhere in the region, but only so long as they follow a golden rule: don’t define homosexuality in western gay terms. ...

Western-based gay rights organisations loathe this set-up as a kind of crude hypocrisy. But they have no constituency to speak of in the Arab world, apart from a few dozen westernised queens in Beirut. Sadly, that doesn’t stop them from relentlessly trying to impose on the Arab world their western gay lifestyle choices. The effect, though, is not what is desired.

For a start, it achieves what the reactionaries could only dream of achieving: reducing the number of practising homosexuals. Once homosexuality is defined and dragged out of the closet in western terms, nobody wants to have anything to do with it. Moreover, gay activists give credence to the reactionaries’ argument that homosexuality is something foreign, precisely because it is defined in western gay terms; and it also gives Middle Eastern regimes an excuse to round up self-identified gay men who can be associated with that foreignness. It came as no surprise this week that state Syrian TV, in the midst of the Gay Girl in Damascus scandal, reportedly blamed (and without apparent irony) homosexuals for the uprising in the country.

It’s another example of how futile it is to see the region through the prism of western-style democracy and individual rights, and how trying to impose radical change very suddenly on a people who do not want it only makes things worse. A more basic question, of course, is whether the ghettoised western gay lifestyle is really something that anyone should take as a role model, but that is never asked by those who insist on imposing on other cultures a concept they only invented a few decades ago. Why on earth would Arabs not want to live like us, with our prejudices and hang-ups and strict definitions of what is and is not normal, acceptable and desirable?

Full article here:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/7027738/gay-damascus.thtml

[injest]

can't wait to get Milo's take on this!

[Milo]

This is a great article, and it puts many things in perspective. Here are a few thoughts.

1. Way back when, in about the year 3 BDE (Before the David Era), I spent the weekend with an older gentleman who was very well traveled, wealthy, and quite intelligent. He had business dealings in several African countries because of his executive position with the company for which he worked. He made a comment during the weekend about how I was nothing like the African men he had been with. When I asked him what he meant, he started telling me about them. Needless to say, there were many things he pointed out that have nothing to do with this conversation. But he observed that in westernized, sub-Saharan Africa, most of them were married and got their man-sex in secret. They were closeted. In Islamic, northern Africa, the men were mostly confirmed homosexuals who did what they did with no worries because people knew about their orientation. But the odd thing was that, to them, there was no such concept as "gay." Unless you were married, you basically had sex with whomever you wanted.

2. The article points to the creation of single-gender environments such as those found in Victorian-era boarding schools. My experience has been similar. These environments make it easy to be a homosexual. I was talking about this over on Art of Manliness in the Christianity thread. The question was something along the lines of "How has religion effected your sex life?" I talked about how the biblical prohibition on premarital sex had created social standards that kept boys and girls segregated except under adult supervision. At summer camp, the boys camp' was on one side, the girls' was on the other, etc. If I went to a girl's house to study, practice music, or work on a school project, all activity was done in a public area of the house (kitchen, living room, den), with a parent nearby. Conversely, if I went to a boy's house, we were typically told to go to the boy's bedroom to keep from making a mess of the public areas, or disturbing the parents. So Christianity actually helped my sex life!!

3. I'm surprised to see a someone in the MSM who understands the difference between homosexuality and gay culture. Maybe Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was correct when he said "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country," Maybe he was trying to say that the homosexuals in Iran were different. And according to this article, middle-eastern homosexuals are different from those in the west.

4. I find it interesting and refreshing to read that in Damscus and Saudi Arabia one can be openly homosexual as long as you maintain you Arabic-ness. This confirms (yet again) my long-held position at people generally don't care about homosexuality, but are quite bothered by gayness. And to an extent, I applaud Syria and Saudi Arabia for enforcing their cultural norms. Any culture that does not maintain its own boundaries will eventually see its cultural elements replaced and/or devalued. I would not go so far as rounding up the queens and putting them in jail, or executing them. I think that the social pressure such individuals face here in the west is generally sufficient.

5. The author notes,

"At the same time, none considered himself ‘gay’ in the sense that he harboured a burning inclination to transform what he did in the bedroom into an all-defining lifestyle choice and personal identikit. For them, the personal was not political."

and

"A more basic question, of course, is whether the ghettoised western gay lifestyle is really something that anyone should take as a role model, but that is never asked by those who insist on imposing on other cultures a concept they only invented a few decades ago. Why on earth would Arabs not want to live like us, with our prejudices and hang-ups and strict definitions of what is and is not normal, acceptable and desirable?"

"Why?" indeed!! I'm happy to see a group of homosexual men who socialize with each other and live their lives in this manner. They are free of the social and political burdens of the gay community. They are free from the ridicule that comes from having a bad hairstyle, or wearing outdated clothes. They don't have to go to the gym to be acceptable. Nobody is going to tell them they are stupid or self-hating if they don't support a guy for prom queen, or a girl who wants to wear a tux to the prom. Nobody calls them "traitor" or "delusional" if they vote for a candidate in the wrong party.

These guys are free from all of that bullshit. In many ways, they have more freedom than we do. Bravo!!

[injest]

This is a great article, and it puts many things in perspective. Here are a few thoughts.


4. I find it interesting and refreshing to read that in Damscus and Saudi Arabia one can be openly homosexual as long as you maintain you Arabic-ness. This confirms (yet again) my long-held position at people generally don't care about homosexuality, but are quite bothered by gayness. And to an extent, I applaud Syria and Saudi Arabia for enforcing their cultural norms. Any culture that does not maintain its own boundaries will eventually see its cultural elements replaced and/or devalued. I would not go so far as rounding up the queens and putting them in jail, or executing them. I think that the social pressure such individuals face here in the west is generally sufficient.

5. The author notes,

"At the same time, none considered himself ‘gay’ in the sense that he harboured a burning inclination to transform what he did in the bedroom into an all-defining lifestyle choice and personal identikit. For them, the personal was not political."

and

"A more basic question, of course, is whether the ghettoised western gay lifestyle is really something that anyone should take as a role model, but that is never asked by those who insist on imposing on other cultures a concept they only invented a few decades ago. Why on earth would Arabs not want to live like us, with our prejudices and hang-ups and strict definitions of what is and is not normal, acceptable and desirable?"

"Why?" indeed!! I'm happy to see a group of homosexual men who socialize with each other and live their lives in this manner. They are free of the social and political burdens of the gay community. They are free from the ridicule that comes from having a bad hairstyle, or wearing outdated clothes. They don't have to go to the gym to be acceptable. Nobody is going to tell them they are stupid or self-hating if they don't support a guy for prom queen, or a girl who wants to wear a tux to the prom. Nobody calls them "traitor" or "delusional" if they vote for a candidate in the wrong party.

These guys are free from all of that bullshit. In many ways, they have more freedom than we do. Bravo!!

this has been my question...the 'gay mainstream' has created this ghetto themselves, with rules and laws of their own..then they complain that they were 'born' that way and we must all be accepting of their invented ghetto identity..they can't/won't seperate their self imposed ghetto from their homosexuality.

[MagicM]

Thanks for that well considered response Milo.

I suppose the rub about the Damascus and the general Arab scene is that none of these guys can live openly together.

Now in previous centuries and in ancient societies I presume that homosexual men did what Arab men do today - marry reasonably un/happily as a perceived social duty and have sex on the side (just as many hetero men have mistresses on the side). It seems that once the decision is made to make the relationship with a guy open then willy nilly that is seen as making a statement about identity whether one wants to make such a statement or not. Now some men take that to an extreme by accentuating "difference" and socialising only amongst themselves and others just live their lives quietly in the burbs with a general mix of friends. But the point is that even this would be unacceptable in Arab countries and those ultra feminised men who really are that way and not just putting on an act still get into big trouble in those societies (some even resort to sex change operations to make them women with the support of their parents in Iran for example - I saw a TV doco on this).

So IMO all in the garden isn't totally rosy in Arab countries - they still have problems only they have different problems.

PS I am aware that I am defining "problems" from my own "western" perspective. Perhaps Arab guys are OK with things the way they are and they seem to be. If so I wonder if they would want changes as their societies become more "liberal" and democratic.

PPS Having written the above, I had to think about what I meant by "identity". I suppose I was being simplistic by equating sexual orientation with identity which is a far more complex thing. So I would want to rephrase my statement above - a decision to live openly with another a guy is a statement of one's sexual orientation not one's identity.

[Artiste]

Merci Magic!

    For a start, it achieves what the reactionaries could only dream of achieving: reducing the number of practising homosexuals.   

The reducing means to murder or kill homosexuals in that part of the arab, muslims, world?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[MagicM]

Merci Magic!

The reducing means to murder or kill homosexuals in that part of the arab, muslims, world?

Au revoir,
hugs!

No thankfully Artiste - what the author is suggesting is that the promotion of a western-style "gay identity" in Arab countries would be so disagreeable and dangerous for cultural and political reasons that the end result would be fewer men willing to be involved in that: hence the number of practising homosexuals would be reduced.

[Artiste]

Merci Magic!

So the author says that the arab or muslim/islamic thought or ways is to bully homosexuals?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Milo]

No thankfully Artiste - what the author is suggesting is that the promotion of a western-style "gay identity" in Arab countries would be so disagreeable and dangerous for cultural and political reasons that the end result would be fewer men willing to be involved in that: hence the number of practising homosexuals would be reduced.

And we know that western-style "gayness" is one reason that some homosexuals in the west stay in the closet. It certainly is ironic that orthodox gays don't see the role their cultural trappings play in contributing to closeted behavior.

[Artiste]

Merci, but I really do NOT understand!

The homosexuals in the arab muslims world are not considering themselves that because they are islamics?

Or is it because these are just following governments because these are islamic run?


Au revoir,
hugs!

[MagicM]

Merci, but I really do NOT understand!

The homosexuals in the arab muslims world are not considering themselves that because they are islamics?

Or is it because these are just following governments because these are islamic run?


Au revoir,
hugs!

Artiste homosexuals in Arab countries do recognise their own sexuality. It is just that they do not publicy proclaim a specific "gay" identity by participating in marches or by living in "gay" areas or by political action. They just meet up in coffee shops every now and then to get together but otherwise generally live like everyone else. They are  happy to go along like this as it suits their culture and the government leaves them alone.

[Artiste]

Merci Magic!

  Homosexuals enjoy extraordinary freedoms in Damascus, as they do elsewhere in the region, but only so long as they follow a golden rule: don’t define homosexuality in western gay terms. ...

   

- is likely just propoganda to make the West think that freedom reigns in arab muslims contries!!!-and it could be also just a con to trap those gays so to turture them?

There are many arab muslims homosexuals that do go to gay clubs in their countries, but the governments do harass them and some even beaten, jailed or murdered!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Milo]

Merci Magic!
- is likely just propoganda to make the West think that freedom reigns in arab muslims contries!!!-and it could be also just a con to trap those gays so to turture them?

I really don't think its propaganda, Artiste. John R. Bradley is an Englishman who has traveled and written extensively in and about the Middle East. What he offers here in this article are his personal observations, and those of homosexual men he has talked with.

There are many arab muslims homosexuals that do go to gay clubs in their countries, but the governments do harass them and some even beaten, jailed or murdered!

Yes. And Bradley mentions that in his article. They are the kinds of gays that the governments find culturally incompatible, and are therefore intolerant. The guys who just hang out in the coffee shops are not harassed because they keep their lifestyles consistent with the local culture.

[Artiste]

Merci Milo!

Saying:

  The guys who just hang out in the coffee shops are not harassed because they keep their lifestyles consistent with the local culture.       

, isn't that just a trap so the islamic government in that arab country will know who the homosexuals arabs (and others such as visitors) are, and become easy targets for murdering or jail them just because they are muslims not following that religion?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Milo]

Saying: , isn't that just a trap so the islamic government in that arab country will know who the homosexuals arabs (and others such as visitors) are, and become easy targets for murdering or jail them just because they are muslims not following that religion?

According to the article, quite the opposite is true. The kinds of guys that frequent these cafes are not the rainbow flag types, so they are safe from scrutiny.